<p dir="ltr">I can take minutes!</p>
<p dir="ltr">I have a few ideas to passively prevent tipping, though it would need some testing. Basically a spring linkage where if the force on the sail exceeds the safe range, the mast bends to 'waste' power instead of capsizing.</p>
<p dir="ltr">As for the catamaran hull, they're much easier to balance out, though it might make for poorer maneuvering.</p>
<p dir="ltr">-Norm</p>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Jul 5, 2016 11:28 AM, "William Gibson" <<a href="mailto:william.gibson.wg@gmail.com">william.gibson.wg@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br type="attribution"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div><div><div><div><div><div>I proposed a maximum size of the U.S. 1m class, which Dave said sounds good. Him and I are still going back and forth a bit on the other race specifics.<br><br></div>I enjoy sailing catamarans, but IMHO with an autonomous boat the risk of flipping is too high. It's so easy to get too much power from a little gust. We could regulate this with a tilt sensor, it just seems like additional risk. What are your thoughts on this Mark?<br><br></div>If we have access to a canoe or kayak, that would be fine. I was proposing the rescue system for the testing phase only, while developing autopilot without a rescue boat. You're right, it's probably unnecessary additional work.<br><br></div>We'll definitely need a GPS module, if you have one we can use, that'd be great.<br><br></div>Can we use your 802.15.4 modules as a wireless RS232 cable, or would we have to write software for them? <br></div>We'll have to see how much bandwidth we need, based on what feedback we want from the boat.<br><br></div><div>Let me know off list if you want to Skype in tomorrow Mark (or anyone else).<br><br></div><div>Also, would someone please volunteer to scribe at the meeting?<br></div><div>Thanks!<br></div>Will<br><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><br><br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Jul 5, 2016 at 11:03 AM, Canadian Avenger <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:canadianavenger@gmail.com" target="_blank">canadianavenger@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div>Doc looks good. I won't be able to make the first meeting, unless I can Skype in, so I'll post some notes here.<br><br>We should be able to laser-cut balsa, to get a good accurate frame, and then add a fiberglass skin to it. My vote would be for a Catamaran or trimaran design. We'll need them to classify the class/size we can go to, as this will certainly need to be defined in order to be fair.<br><br></div><div>The boat needs to be fully un-powered and autonomous, so no on-board rescue system, we'll need an external chase boat. [canoe/kayak should work fine] -- based on my read of the initial proposal email.<br><br></div><div>I can provide GPS receivers if necessary, I have plenty of modules kicking around. <br><br></div><div>Zigbee with a high-power radio might be an option for telemetry data. [we easily have line of sight on the water so long range is very possible] -- I may even have some radios for this, though not zigbee protocol, they are in the 802.15.4 spectrum. [I think I have some boards from an old product I designed [GPS on a golf-cart] that have both the 802.15.4 radio, and a GPS receiver on it. <br><br></div><div>Mark<br></div><div><br><br></div></div><div><div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, Jul 3, 2016 at 8:00 PM, William Gibson <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:william.gibson.wg@gmail.com" target="_blank">william.gibson.wg@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div><b>First meeting</b>: Wednesday July 6th, 2016; 6-11pm; Hacklab.to - 1266 Queen W., Unit 6</div><div><br></div><div>I have attached a design document which we can hopefully move to another format (wiki, etc).</div><div>I tried uploading to google docs, but it broke all my hyperlinks.</div><div>These are just my thoughts and ramblings while doing some preparatory research on the subject. I'm pretty sick this weekend, so sorry if it's not entirely coherent. </div><div><br></div><div>Please read the document (at least the sections you might be interested in working on) before the meeting. </div><div>Hoping to see you all there!</div><div><br></div><div>Also, please help me make sure I'm not missing anyone who wanted to be a part of this - </div><div><b>Current team roster:</b><br></div><div>Alan</div><div>Dan</div><div>Kristy [nonmember, from Tool library]</div><div>Mark L.</div><div>Mark V.</div><div>Myles</div><div>Norm</div><div>Ravi</div><div>Rob</div><div>Trevor</div><span><font color="#888888"><div>William</div></font></span><div><div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Jun 30, 2016 at 6:22 PM, Trevor McKee <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:trevordmckee@gmail.com" target="_blank">trevordmckee@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><p dir="ltr">thanks Will! I'll make an effort to be there from 8:30-11 at least! go go Hacklab Autonomous sailboat team!</p>
<p dir="ltr">I had someone from Toronto Tool library makerspace who responded that they may be interested when I forwarded it on, if they didn't get on another team I may invite them to ours? </p><div><div>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Jun 30, 2016 16:10, "William Gibson" <<a href="mailto:william.gibson.wg@gmail.com" target="_blank">william.gibson.wg@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br type="attribution"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div>Ravi, Myles, Trevor, Mark - read the thread below to catch up a bit.<br><br></div><div>Rob: I totally agree, determining scope will be critical. Yes, I'm up to meet next week. <br>I propose <b>Wednesday July 6, 6-11pm</b> in the classroom. (August long weekend and July 4th probably won't work for many, this is the next closest non-tuesday)<br></div><div></div><div><br></div><div>With this level of interest, I think we could make a reasonable attempt. I will email Dave and let him know. Hopefully another space will join too!<br></div><div><br></div>Will<br><br><div><div><div class="gmail_quote">---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>From: <b class="gmail_sendername">Rob</b> <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:thatotherdude@gmail.com" target="_blank">thatotherdude@gmail.com</a>></span><br>Date: Thu, Jun 30, 2016 at 3:55 PM<br>Subject: Re: Hacklab Autonomous Sailboat Team<br>To: Dan Tapper <<a href="mailto:dantappersounddesign@gmail.com" target="_blank">dantappersounddesign@gmail.com</a>><br>Cc: William Gibson <<a href="mailto:william.gibson.wg@gmail.com" target="_blank">william.gibson.wg@gmail.com</a>>, Alan Majer <<a href="mailto:alanmajer@hotmail.com" target="_blank">alanmajer@hotmail.com</a>><br><br><br><div dir="ltr"><span><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><span style="font-size:12.8px">We will have to make the most </span><i style="font-size:12.8px">basic </i><span style="font-size:12.8px">attempt possible, to have a chance of success.</span><br></blockquote><div><br></div></span><div>I am +1ing this so much! Step 1: We need to determine what the hell a minimum viable autonomous sail boat is.</div><span><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><span style="font-size:12.8px">If Rob thinks ardupilot is the way to go, we would need that hardware soon, plus gps, compass, and something we can use to measure wind direction.</span></blockquote><div><br></div></span><div>So until we have the requirements laid out I won't know - jumping into a programming project before you have an understanding of the expected scope in my experience tends to lead to rewrites and lots of sunk time especially on projects with lots of unknowns (like building an autonomous sail boat for the first time).</div><div><br></div><div>So let's figure out our software and hardware requirements in detail and write them down somewhere (Hacklab wiki?) as priority one as a team. Are people able to meet next week to kick this off a round of requirements gathering followed by a look at the suitability of available technologies?</div><div><br></div><div>Once we have requirements figured out if there are unknowns surrounding a potential tech or aspect of the project we should try programming spikes ( <a href="http://www.extremeprogramming.org/rules/spike.html" target="_blank">http://www.extremeprogramming.org/rules/spike.html</a> ) to rule out what won't work before we throw any serious time into a potential technological dead end.</div><div><br></div><div>In other words my thinking is that we go after the unknowns as soon as we have our requirements laid out - attempting a quick and dirty prototype of ever major aspect that could go horribly wrong and then we take on the project full force with that experience (ie. mistakes made cheaply) backing us up.</div><div><br></div><div>Cheers,</div><div>Rob</div><div><br></div></div><div><div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Jun 30, 2016 at 12:34 PM, Dan Tapper <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:dantappersounddesign@gmail.com" target="_blank">dantappersounddesign@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto"><div>Sounds great! Excited to be involved :) <br><br>Sent from my iPad</div><div><div><div><br>On 30 Jun 2016, at 12:32, William Gibson <<a href="mailto:william.gibson.wg@gmail.com" target="_blank">william.gibson.wg@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div><div>Rob: Excitement is excellent. As I said I'm only good for a few hours a week myself, so no worries there. Take care of yourself first! :)<br><br></div></div>Dan: This is how hacklab works. :) My second time at open house as a guest, I jumped in and helped hack on Train Overlord along with everyone else. Totally jump in on stuff, it's the best way to learn! And yes, I think between us the sailing experience will help a lot come up with simple control algorithms.<br>I'm not sure I've met you in person yet, hope to see you around!<br><br>All:<br>I'm just taking the lead a bit because no-one else is. It would be
cool to wrangle 2 or 3 more people - then we would have enough human
resources to make a viable attempt IMHO.<br>That said, should you guys want to make the attempt regardless, I would be willing to give it a shot.<br><br></div><div>If Rob thinks ardupilot is the way to go, we would need that hardware soon, plus gps, compass, and something we can use to measure wind direction.<br><br></div><div>The easiest hull will be hand-carved foam. Something closed cell, light and water resistant. Maybe a sheet of stuff from the hardware store, glued into a block.<br></div><div>A few tubes of aluminum for a mast and boom. A machined solid hunk of steel to make a nice keel weight. <br></div><div>For a sail, apparently windbreaker material (65/35 cotton/polyester) is good, or egyptian cotton could work.<br></div><div>Then we need a mainsheet. Probably could get by with fishing line?<br><br></div><div>Like I said, I think the boat build itself will be relatively easy (famous last words...)<br></div><div>The software will be the real challenge!<br><br></div><div>We'll need a high-level 'planner' to set waypoints based on gps and wind, to compute a desired heading and point-of-sail. It will also have to plan tacks (hopefully no jibes)<br>Then a low-level 'sailor' that takes the desired heading and steers to it, adjusting sail position as required. <br><br></div><div>We will have to make the most <i>basic </i>attempt possible, to have a chance of success.<br><br></div><div>What do you guys think?<br></div><div>Also, try and wrangle some other people to get in on this if we want it to happen.<br></div><div><br>Will<br></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Jun 30, 2016 at 11:45 AM, Rob <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:thatotherdude@gmail.com" target="_blank">thatotherdude@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">I really wanted to do this when I sent the first email but the more I've thought about it I know I'm not going to be able to be super reliable because I feel like I am constantly flirting with burnout. What I mean is that I burned out badly 2 years ago and since then I have had this tendency to completely loose any ability to keep my focus at random and when I try to push myself I just fall asleep.<div><br></div><div>So I'm happy to help as much as I can do safely without exasperating whatever the hell is going on with me but I don't know how much that will be. Let's estimate on the low side and say a couple hours a week for me?</div><div><br></div><div>Sorry about this guys, I really miss being able to push myself and make awesome projects happen and I let my excitement cloud my pragmatism a little there.</div><div><br></div><div>Cheers,</div><div>Rob</div></div><div><div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Jun 29, 2016 at 4:39 PM, William Gibson <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:william.gibson.wg@gmail.com" target="_blank">william.gibson.wg@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div><div><div><div>Hey guys - how much time could you contribute each week?<br></div>I would propose a group session Monday, Wednesday, Thursday, or Sunday for maybe 5 hours one night a week. Potentially a few full-day sessions for builds on weekends.<br></div><div><br></div>Assuming we need to finish at the beginning of September, that's only eight weeks - so I can put in ~40h in person (a bit more working from home).<br><br></div>We'll need at least: a hull, mast, keel, rudder and servo, sail, mainsheet servo, wind direction sensor, compass, gps, controller (ardupilot?). <br><br></div><div>Will<br></div><div>P.s. if we are really doing this, we should get a mailing list.<br></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Jun 29, 2016 at 3:34 PM, Dan Tapper <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:dantappersounddesign@gmail.com" target="_blank">dantappersounddesign@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div>I'd be interested in getting involved!<br></div><div>Dan<br></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><div><div><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Jun 29, 2016 at 2:58 PM, William Gibson via Members <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:members@hacklab.to" target="_blank">members@hacklab.to</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div><div><div><div>Hi Dave (and everyone)<br><br></div>We've been emailing internally at Hacklab, trying to scrounge a team together. I think this is a great idea!<br></div>Three of us have expressed interest (including the one you saw), but I believe we will need more committed members to pull off this project.<br><br></div>Personally, my biggest concern is the difficulty involved in testing. I don't think it will be easy for us to get the team together, throw the boat in the lake, and then recover it every time it has a hiccup. Do you have plans on this for your space?<br><br></div><div></div>Part of it is also 6. Other - our space doesn't have a strong history of group projects. Train Overlord was the last one I'm aware of, and that was even before <i>I </i>joined<i>.</i> I think it would be cool to buck the trend a bit and gather the resources that Hacklab has to offer. <b>If other hacklabbers can commit to working on this with Rob, Alan and myself, I will forego members night until September and instead work on the boat one night a week.</b><br><div><div><div><br></div><div>To kick it off - what colour should it be? </bikeshed><br><br></div><div>Will<br></div><div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div><div>On Wed, Jun 29, 2016 at 12:02 PM, Dave Harvey via Members <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:members@hacklab.to" target="_blank">members@hacklab.to</a>></span> wrote:<br></div></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><div><div dir="ltr">It's been a week since I sent my last email seeking expressions of interest in an autonomous sailboat race to be held in Hamilton in September.<div><br></div><div>I've received very little response: 1 person from Hacklab, 1 from Site3, and a message from Diyode that they'd bring it up at their meeting this week. No one has said that they'll definitely participate.</div><div><br></div><div>If we're going to do this, we need to know soon. Please try to give me an In or Out decision by Monday, July 4.</div><div><br></div><div>Even if you're not interested, I'd appreciate your feedback on the idea. Are you not interested because:</div><div><br></div><div>1. It's too hard to wrangle a team during the summer;</div><div>2. The project seems too difficult for the time available;</div><div>3. The project is just not the kind of thing our people are interested in;</div><div>4. We have too many other projects on the go right now;</div><div>5. We're a sad little group that never does anything fun;</div><div>6. Other</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks,</div><div><br></div><div>Dave</div><div>think|haus</div></div>
<br></div></div>_______________________________________________<br>
Members mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Members@hacklab.to" target="_blank">Members@hacklab.to</a><br>
<a href="https://lists.hacklab.to/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/members" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.hacklab.to/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/members</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div></div></div></div></div>
<br>_______________________________________________<br>
Members mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Members@hacklab.to" target="_blank">Members@hacklab.to</a><br>
<a href="https://lists.hacklab.to/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/members" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.hacklab.to/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/members</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><span><font color="#888888"><br></font></span></div></div><span><font color="#888888"><span><font color="#888888">-- <br><div data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><a href="http://www.dantappersounddesign.com" target="_blank">www.dantappersounddesign.com</a><br></div><a href="http://issuu.com/dantappersoundart/docs/dan_tapper_2015_portfolio" target="_blank">Portfolio</a><br></div><div><a href="http://visualcodepoems.tumblr.com/" target="_blank">Code Poetry</a></div></div></div></div>
</font></span></font></span></div>
</blockquote></div><br></div></div>
</blockquote></div><br></div>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>
</div></blockquote></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>
</div></div></div><br></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div><br></div>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>
<br>_______________________________________________<br>
Autosail mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Autosail@hacklab.to">Autosail@hacklab.to</a><br>
<a href="https://lists.hacklab.to/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/autosail" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.hacklab.to/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/autosail</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div>